Mormon Truth Interviews!!

"I have no doubt, (based on)what I have studied..that Mormons, including local leaders of our church, were prime movers/participated in the killing."

samueltheutahnite@yahoo.com (Samuel the Utahnite) — Wed, 13 Jun 2007 12:24:00 +0000

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This is the audio clip of Dallin H. Oaks, from "The Mormons", declaring:

"I have no doubt, on the basis of what I have studied and learned, that Mormons, including local leaders of our church, were prime movers in that terrible episode and participated in the killing."

He then also says:

“I pray that he(The Lord) can find a way to forgive those who took such a terrible action against their fellow beings.”

In reality, the Church has already completely forgiven John D. Lee, the only man ever held accountable, who was executed for the crime, while over 100 other men were never held accountable by Brigham Young or anyone else, due to their “vow of silence”, which would result in death if broken.

In 1961, the Mormon First Presidency reinstated all of John D. Lee's blessings, including his temple blessings, meaning that they, the Mormon Hierarchy and Prophet, have indeed completely forgiven John D. Lee, as if he did nothing at all and his sins are now white as snow.

"For more than a hundred years, the families of John D. Lee have borne the opprobrium of the massacre alone. For that reason, they have welcomed every effort to probe the question; certainly no truth could be worse than the stories to which they were subjected. Now they have special cause to rejoice, for on April 20, 1961, the First Presidency and the Council of Twelve Apostles of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints met in joint council, and: 'It was the action of the Council after considering all the facts available that authorization be given for the reinstatement to membership and former blessings [temple marriages] to John D. Lee.' Word of this was sent out to members of the family, and on May 8 and 9, the necessary ordinances were performed in the Salt Lake Temple. A complete record is in the files of the Latter-day Saints Genealogical Society." (Mountain Meadows Massacre, p. 223)

It's hard to understand this reinstating of John D. Lee's complete blessings, when Joseph Smith and Mormon doctrine clearly teaches that Murder is unforgivable, let alone MASS MURDER. Gee, I wonder how they explain this?

I beg all TBMS and Mormon Apologists, to enlighten all of us evil ex-Mormons, as to how this can be. Doesn't this contradict your beloved Joseph Smith and his teachings?

Joseph Smith supposedly received the following revelation from Jesus Christ:

SECTION 132

27 The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in nowise enter into my glory, but shall be damned, saith the Lord.

To further support what was recorded in the D&C, Joseph Smith also clearly taught that murderers cannot have eternal life, cannot be saved, cannot be baptized for the remission of sins and that they will all literally go to hell, which must be outer darkness, since hell is not a Mormon glory.

Joseph Smith said:

“A murderer for instance, one that sheds innocent blood, cannot have forgiveness.” (Teachings Of The Prophet Joseph Smith-Page 339)

I also hope that since, Dallin H. Oaks and the Mormon Hierarchy, have now finally admitted that “Mormons, including local leaders of our church, were prime movers in that terrible episode and participated in the killing”, that this will free up the families of those who were brutally executed that day at Mountain Meadows, to finally be able to file a class action lawsuit against the Mormon church and the current Mormon Hierarchy.

This statement by Dallin H. Oaks, admitting fault, also contradicts Hinckley, who said the following on Sept 11, 1999:

"No one can explain what happened in these meadows 142 years ago. We may speculate, but we do not know. We do not understand it. We cannot comprehend it. We can only say that the past is long since gone."

and

"That which we have done here must never be construed as an acknowledgment of the part of the church of any complicity in the occurrences of that fateful day."

It looks like Hinckley, the current Mormon Prophet and Dallin H. Oaks, current Mormon Apostle, need to have a private meeting and discuss the massive descrpencies that exist their public statements.

Also, based on the other comment by Dallin H. Oaks, which I just posted, clearly stating that, “It's wrong to criticize leaders of the church, even if the criticism is true”, this means that even though he admitted that church leaders "were prime movers in that terrible episode and participated in the killing” of around 120 innocent men, women and children; you cannot criticize them for it and in fact, he probably wants you to follow his lead and pray that they will all be forgiven, just like they’ve forgiven John D. Lee.

Samuel the Utahnite

Dallin H. Oaks-Mormon Apostle/Cult Leader, Arrogantly Says: "It's Wrong To Criticize Leaders Of The (Mormon)Church, Even If The Criticism Is True."

samueltheutahnite@yahoo.com (Samuel the Utahnite) — Mon, 11 Jun 2007 15:56:00 +0000

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This is the audio clip of Dallin H. Oaks, current Mormon Apostle/cult leader, from the PBS documentary, "The Mormons", declaring unequivocally:

"IT'S WRONG TO CRITICIZE LEADERS OF THE (MORMON)CHURCH, EVEN IF THE CRITICISM IS TRUE."

This statement is truly the epitome of arrogance and unbelievable!! If this doesn't prove that Mormonism is a totalitarian regime/cult, then I don't know what does.

Why would anyone want to be under a literal Mormon dictatorship of normal, everyday men, that are masquerading as Prophets, Seers and Revelators of God; while they are robbing you blind of your money and freedom of thought, expression and opinion. Wake up folks and see the light!!

If this doesn't bother you Mormon true-believers and followers out there, then nothing ever will!!

I mean hell, "even if the criticism is true", you can't say anything? Is he serious?!! That doesn't remind any of you true-believers of a communist country or the Nazis, does it? Isn't that how they ran things?

Gee, and here I thought that the Mormons taught everyone that we fought a war in heaven, so that we could have our free agency here on earth? FREE AGENCY? That doesn't exist in Mormonism and Mr. Oaks just proved it, for all the world to hear. I guess everyone is FREE to OBEY THEM OR ELSE, right?

I will also be doing a follow-up podcast(on my Mormon Truth Uncensored Podcast), regarding this statement alone and what exactly it means in the big scheme of things and how it stands alone in showing the world that Mormonism is absolutely a fraud and a cult, a la Jim Jones, Heaven's Gate, The Moonies, David Koresh's Branch Davidians, etc.

Of course, the Mormon Hierarchy is a bit smarter then those guys were, since they don't want to command everyone to drink the poisoned punch, because then they wouldn't be getting anymore tithing, fast offerings and the other vast array of donations, that they beg and plead for every single day.

If they ordered a mass suicide, where would they get the easy billions that are rolling in, to buy their next malls or re-design downtowns or build luxury resorts or buy cattle ranches and gaming preserves, or to purchase 663 acres(adding to their already 6,000 that they own) in Laie, Hawaii, to build a 550 home housing development, right? What would the corporation of the President or corporation of the Presiding Bishopric do without all those easy billions?

But I just wanted this quote and several other quotes, to be stand alone downloads, so that everyone can download the exact quotes and then pass them around to the world, and their Mormon friends and family, without any additional commentary by me.

I will also be posting many other quotes for everyone to download and have, to hopefully help family and friends that are brainwashed and still stuck in the Mormon cult, to see the light and escape. The audio of this particular quote, will also be posted on my main Mormon Truth blog for everyone to listen to, download and link to.

Remember everyone, that the truth shall truly set you free, from cult leaders like Dallin H. Oaks, Boyd K. Packer, Gordon B. Hinckley and many others, both current and future, who will punish you for criticizing them, "even if the criticism is true"; because they are infallible and claim that their Mormon God will literally, physically remove them, if they ever try to lead you astray, therefore, they can do no wrong, EVER, and basically consider themselves to be Gods on earth, who answer to NO ONE.

My advice folks....GET OUT NOW!!

Samuel the Utahnite

Utah NOW: Viewing THE MORMONS-May 4, 2007-With Doug Fabrizio And Many Guests, Including Helen Whitney, Responding To "The Mormons."

samueltheutahnite@yahoo.com (Samuel the Utahnite) — Mon, 11 Jun 2007 12:51:00 +0000

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A new PBS series profiling the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints will again bring Mormonism into the national spotlight. On an hour-long edition of Utah NOW, we’re talking about the series and gauging the reaction to this latest portrait of the faith. Find out what Utahns say after viewing the documentary.

Did it clear up misconceptions or reinforce them? Join us for a balanced, considered response to the national broadcast. In a unique collaboration between KUED and KBYU, Utah NOW: Viewing THE MORMONS will be simulcast on both channels Friday at 8 pm.

Watch the show... Listen to the show...

Satellite interview with filmmaker Helen Whitney, who--over the course of three years--wrote, produced and directed both segments of the American Experience/Frontline Documentary: THE MORMONS.

Interview with Ken Verdoia and Terryl Givens, who are both featured in the documentary. Ken Verdoia is the director of production at KUED -TV Channel 7 and was one of the first experts contacted by Helen Whitney when she began her work more than three years ago. Terryl Givens is a Mormon author and a professor of Literature and Religion at the University of Richmond, Virginia.

One-on-one interview with LDS Church Historian and Recorder Elder Marlin K. Jensen, of the First Quorum of the Seventy, who is also the executive director of the Family and Church History Department.

Roundtable discussion with Jack Newell, emeritus professor at the University of Utah and a former co-editor of Dialogue Magazine; Elizabeth Sewell, associate director of BYU's International Center for Law and Religion Studies, Bob Goldberg, History professor and director of the University of Utah's Tanner Humanities Center, and Robert Millet a professor of Ancient Scripture and past dean of Religious Studies at BYU.

Doug Fabrizio Interviews Helen Whitney, The Writer, Director And Producer Of The PBS Documentary "The Mormons."

samueltheutahnite@yahoo.com (Samuel the Utahnite) — Sat, 05 May 2007 23:34:00 +0000

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Doug Fabrizio interviewed Helen Whitney regarding her documentary entitled "The Mormons", which appeared on PBS on April 30 and May 1, 2007. This interview aired on April 30, 2007.

The documentary can be watched on PBS.org/Mormons for absolutely free. There is also a discussion board where you can leave comments and join in the discussion. They've also included the full transcripts of many of the interviews that they conducted for the documentary, including Gordon B. Hinckley himself.

I also recommend that everyone visit my Mormon Truth Uncensored Podcast in order to hear the response that I recorded with "Demon of Kolob" on May 2, regarding this documentary.

We recorded the podcast in order to sort out the truth from the fiction and make sure that all of the facts were out there and that everyone knew the "real truth" about "The Mormons."

Samuel the Utahnite

Van Hale Interviews Helen Whitney, The Writer, Director and Producer Of The PBS Documentary "THE MORMONS", That Airs April 30 And May 1, 2007.

samueltheutahnite@yahoo.com (Samuel the Utahnite) — Mon, 30 Apr 2007 22:38:00 +0000

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I just wanted to post this for those that are interested and feel free to leave your comments. Once you get past the Van Hale/Helen Whitney sickening lovefest, which lasts for the first 10 or 15 minutes, they actually begin to talk about the subject of the documentary, which is Mormons.

Samuel the Utahnite

Daniel C. Peterson(The Mormon Apologist) And John Butler, Being Interviewed by Hugh Hewitt, In Response To The LA Times, Regarding Book of Mormon DNA.

samueltheutahnite@yahoo.com (Samuel the Utahnite) — Thu, 15 Feb 2007 22:46:00 +0000

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Here is the transcript:

HH: Welcome back America, it’s Hugh Hewitt, Last week, on February 16, to be exact, I opened up not a can of worms, but a can of chromosomes by getting on my program William Lobdell, Los Angeles Times reporter, who that day had a Page 1, above the fold story, Bedrock of a Faith Is Jolted: The DNA tests contradict Mormon scripture. The Church says the studies are being twisted to attack its belief. There ensued three wonderful segments of controversy and a mountain of e-mail. So with the help of some Mormons out there, I've located a couple of specialists to come on from the perspective of the Church, and I'm pleased to welcome Dr. Daniel Peterson. He's a native Southern Californian, he got his undergraduate degree in Greek, and philosophy from BYU. He got his PhD from the University of California at Los Angeles. He teaches at BYU now, where he's an associate professor of Islamic studies and Arabic. And he's also a member of the Center For the Preservation of Ancient Religions Texts, CPART, which has produced a computer digitized version of the Dead Sea Scrolls. I'm also joined by Dr. John Butler, who is a project leader at the Human Identity DNA Technologies Group, Biotechnology Division for the National Institute of Standards and Technology. I'm afraid to say anything, gentlemen. I'm going to sound dumb to you two. But welcome Drs. both. Dr. Butler, let me start with you. Obviously, this article in the Los Angeles Times made some assertions about the Mormon's faith connection to DNA. Was it accurately represented, that connection?

JB: Personally, I don't think so, and it's largely because that's the way often things happen in the media, is that we try, the things are tried to be portrayed very simplified. And so, these oversimplifications, sometimes you miss the true story of what's going on.

HH: And let me begin with you, Dr. Daniel Peterson. What does the Book of Mormon state about the population of North America, six hundred years before the birth of Christ?

DP: The Book of Mormon doesn't really talk about North America. We don't know exactly where the Book of Mormon story took place. Most people who study it now think probably in Mesoamerica.

HH: Where is that, for the benefit of people like me?

DP: Mesoamerica would be essentially Central America. We're talking Southern Mexico, Northern Guatemala, probably.

HH: Okay, and who was there, and who's the subject of the Book of Mormon, for people who are not Mormons?

DP: Essentially, there are three migrations that is described in the book. One migration of non-Hebrews, quite early. And then around 600BC, the most important one in terms of the Book of Mormon story, is a small migration of maybe two dozen, three dozen people at the most, who come from Jerusalem, roughly around 600BC, just prior to the Babylonian captivity.

HH: And how did they get here?

DP: How'd they get here? By boat.

HH: All right. And so, from those two dozen, three dozen, how many spring forth in the continents?

DP: Well, the figure at the very end of the Book of Mormon have battles involving, well, for example, 23 units of 10,000. Now whether those are ideal units or not, we don't know. So relatively large population after about a thousand years. We're talking toward the end of the 4th Century AD. But we don't know whether those groups had intermarried with other groups in the course of the history of the Book of Mormon. Most likely, they did.

HH: Okay, so if we have a quarter million descendants at least partially of Jews, Dr. Butler, what is the likelihood of there being DNA traceable Jewish DNA in some of the tribes of current Central America?

JB: Well, I think that kind of goes to...I read the transcript that you had last week with Bill Lobdell, where he says at the end, how could a group of people vanish without a genetic trace, when you're measuring...and again, what you're measuring with the studies that are being done now, are the Y chromosomes and mitochondrial DNA. Y chromosome is passed on from father to son. Mitochondrial DNA is passed on from mother to daughter. So it doesn't capture all of the genetic variation that's within our chromosomes. But, that being said, I believe...and there was a very interesting study a couple of years ago, which makes be believe that I think it is possible for a group to vanish without a genetic trace when you're measuring these types of markers. If I could go through and explain, I'll be happy to do that, or...

HH: Please, please. Take your time. We've got five minutes.

JB: Okay.

HH: We've got lots more than five minutes. We have five minutes to the break.

JB: Okay. In June of 2003, there was an article in the American Journal of Human Genetics, and I can give you the exact reference if you want. But it was published, it's American Journal of Human Genetics, 2003, Vol. 72, Page 1370-1388. And what happened in this article is, most genetic studies that are being done are...with human history tracing human history...involve just a few samples. That may be...a few is relative. That could be hundreds, even thousands of individuals. But you're looking at living individuals and comparing one group of people, let's say Native Americans, to people in Africa or Asia or somewhere else.

HH: Right.

JB: You won't have any detailed knowledge about the genealogy of the individuals being tested.

HH: Right.

JB: It isn't happening. However, in the study that was done in June of 2003, what they did is they used very extensive genealogies from the people of Iceland. And there's a company called DECODE Genetics, which actually has traced and got all the genealogy of the people in Iceland, and actually have the DNA of everybody that lives in Iceland today. And so, in this paper, what they do is they run 131,000 people from Iceland that are born after 1972. Then they go back and they say if we go back in time, 150 years, or 300 years, can we track and find out how many of those ancestors that would have lived then would have their DNA today. So I hope that makes sense to you and to your listeners.

HH: Yes, and so, what was the result?

JB: So this was a very surprising result, because as they examined...they examined the same Y chromosome and mitochondrial markers that are being done in other studies, and these 131,000 individuals that were studied, revealed a highly skewed distribution of descendants to ancestors. And this is a direct quote from the paper. "Within the vast majority of potential ancestors, contributed one or no descendants, and a minority of ancestors, contributed large numbers of descendants." In other words, a majority of people living today in Iceland had ancestors living only 150 years ago, that could not be detected based on their Y chromosome or mitochondrial DNA tests being performed. Yet, of course, they had the genealogical records showing that these people existed, and were their ancestors. So if you take this to the point at hand, if documented ancestors of 150 years ago can't be seen with Y chromosome and mitochondrial tests from modern Iceland, then why would we expect to see large amounts of Middle Eastern DNA from a people that were reported in the Book of Mormon to have migrated to the Americas 2,600 years ago.

HH: And so to use as a novice here, I want to borrow from the war debate, actually. The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence?

JB: Correct.

HH: And is that what that study proved?

JB: Exactly.

HH: And is there any DNA study, or evidence supporting the account of the Book of Mormon?

JB: Well, even...there are...what's found in all the studies, and there's hundreds of papers that have been published today on the subject, where they've run groups of people from native America, and what they find is that most of the time, there are linkages to haplotypes is what they're called, or haplagroups, that are found in people primarily of Asian origin. So that means either that Native Americans, and of course, this is following the traditional hypothesis that people are modeling this to, is that people traveled across the Bering Strait.

HH: But we're going to break, but I am understanding you say there is actually no
DNA evidence of a previous Jewish tribe from Jerusalem, not implying from that...
JB: But again, part of the problem is, how do you calibrate? What is....what would be the appropriate DNA signature for someone that lived 2,600 years ago in Jerusalem. We don't know that.

HH: But one that you would consider appropriate has not been found?

JB: No.

HH: Alright, when we come back I want to continue the conversation with Dr. Daniel Peterson and ask you Dr. Peterson about other evidences of..... for the Book of Mormon and Dr. Butler, more questions about how tests might, in fact, continue that you would think would be useful. We return...fascinating conversation....I know the phone lines are jammed again, the Emails are pouring in, 1-800-520-1234, connection to the Hugh Hewitt show.....

---------Commercial Break---------

HH: Welcome back America, Hugh Hewitt, joined this segment and next, by a couple of heavy hitters, Dr. John Butler, has a PHD. with the DNA Technologies group at the National Institute for standards and technology, his doctorate of course from the University of Virginia in chemistry analytical and Dr. Daniel Peterson has his PhD. from the University of California at Los Angeles in Near Eastern Languages and cultures.

HH: Dr. Peterson, it is very serendipitous that you are here on this day. I've just got to get your reaction to this. I'm receiving news reports that after the destruction of the 1,200 year old Shiite shrine this morning, in a terrorist attack in Iraq, 90 different Sunni Mosques have been attacked with 19 deaths. I don't know how close this is to your specialty, though you teach in a near Eastern area, how important was this act of terrorism today? And how significant the blowback?

DP: It's hugely significant. It’s a...it was a terrible attack on the Shiites. It's a..It’s an attack on their symbolic heart, on...their piety is really focused on the, on the imams, leaders, the founders of the Shiite tradition. And to have attacked a Mosque like this was deliberately inflammatory. It was designed to drive the Shiites absolutely wild, and apparently, it has.

HH: The tomb, or it’s the place where the imam Mahdi went into hiding, or I'm not quite sure what it is. Can you expand a little bit? Is that within your range?

DP: You know, I haven't heard much of the story today, I confess. I've spent the day in meetings on other topics, and I just heard about it as you were doing the lead-in to your program. So I'm a little embarrassed by that, but I believe you may be talking about the Shrine of the Imam Ali?

HH: Yes. It's the golden shrine in Samara.

DP: Yeah...oh, in Samara?

HH: Yeah.

DP: Ahh. Then I'm less familiar with that one. Yeah a...there are several important Shiite shrines that are central to Shiite ideas of pilgrimage and so on. It's one of the things that bothers the Sunnis, and especially Wahabi-style Sunni Arabs, or excuse me, Sunni Muslims, who really tend to dislike saint veneration and that sort of thing, where Shiites...

HH: Well, I don't want to get too far afield. Maybe we could get you back later this week and go over this with you, Dr. Peterson. Now I'd like to go, and I'll be back to you in a second, Dr. Butler on the DNA stuff. The Book of Mormon has been studied, debated, criticized, debunked, attacked, upheld, died for, martyred over, the subject of persecution for years.

DP: Right.

HH: And now, at BYU, and my old friend Neal Maxwell would tell me, there was research going into the discovery of historical affirmation of its text. What's the strongest bit of evidence that the Church puts forward as validating its story?

DP: Well, I don't think the Church is really in the business of putting forward the evidence, but some of us scholars who are interested in this sort of thing have begun to do it on our own. And the Church doesn't endorse or denounce on the whole what we do or say, so we're left to advocate our own ideas. But here are some things that I see. Now we would say first of all, you're never going to have definitive proof of the Book of Mormon, or anything else really religiously significant, probably. Not in this life. You have to go by spiritual witness on those sorts of things. But, there are...boy, we could go on for this or with this for an hour or more. To me, some of the most impressive things are the testimonies of the witnesses who saw the plates, who remain faithful to their testimony for the rest of their lives, no matter what happened to them.

HH: That's familiar of Christian apologetics...

DP: Right.

HH: ...about the 1st Century martyrs. How about archaeological or anthropological?

DP: Yeah, there are many things. I point, for example, I myself, my background is somewhat of a philological background, so I'm really impressed with the sheer complexity of the text which was dictated at an incredibly rapid pace. It's peppered with what we call Hebraisms or Semiticisms, names that seem to be authentically Hebrew in ways that Joseph Smith couldn't have known, phraseology, Hebrew-style conditional sentences that aren't even good English in the original editions, but are very good classical Hebrew. And Joseph Smith couldn't have known that. He scarcely knew English in the late 1820's. Specifically, pre-exilic symbolism that shows up, that is before the Babylonian captivity.

HH: An example of that, Doctor?

DP: Yeah, in first Nephi 11, one of the earliest chapters in the book, you have an example of the representation of a divine, the mother of the Divine child, Mary, holding the baby Jesus. And she's equated with a tree. Now that's, I think, specifically tying into imagery that would have been familiar to the pre-exilic Hebrews, the authors of those first chapters, where...

HH: Has a structure been discovered, Dr. Peterson, similar to some of the structures of Old Testament and New Testament Bible, that are traced to, say, Jacob's well, or David's escape route? That sort of thing?

DP: Well, you could...our problem in the New World is the archeology is far less developed than in the old. We're talking about the pre-classic period. In most cases, we don't even know the names of the places we're looking at. The ruins are there. It's not that these people disappeared without a trace. It's that we don't know exactly how to recognize the traces. But you do have, in areas where the archeology is a little better, like in the Arabian Peninsula, we have found specific names that show up in the Book of Mormon, and now have been found in the Arabian Peninsula along the route that the Book of Mormon people would have taken. And they date to specifically that period.

HH: I’m coming back with my two experts, that was Dr. Daniel Peterson of...of the um..where are you teaching now....BYU?

DP: BYU

HH: And Dr. John Butler of the DNA Technologies group at the National Institute for standards and technology, don’t go anywhere, more conversation and your calls coming up on the Hugh Hewitt show.

--------Commercial Break---------

HH: Welcome back America, Hugh Hewitt, updating the situation in Iraq from the blog, Iraq The Model- President Talabani has promised to make rebuilding of the shrine his personal responsibility-the Head of the Sunni endowment sheikh Ahmed al-Samarra'I announces that he will allocate $1.4 million for rebuilding of the shrine from Sunni endowment.-Huge demonstrations in many of Iraq's provinces tonight where thousands and thousands of people are joining up to condemn the attack.-The top 4 Shia Ayatollahs are meeting at Sistani's home to discuss-The Association of Muslim scholars and the Islamic Party have condemned the "criminal act".-Retaliatory attacks are growing but President Jafari, Prime Minister Jafari is calling for national unity and there are cooler heads attempting to keep the peace in Iraq, more as it develops. I’m joined by Dr. John Butler, project leader in Human Identity DNA Technologies groups, from the National Institute of Standard and Technology, and Dr. Daniel Peterson of the BYU faculty, where he is also deeply involved with the Islamic studies and Arabic department, as well as with the CPART, an effort to preserve ancient religious texts.

HH: Dr. Butler, I'd like to go back to you.

JB: Okay.

HH: What do DNA studies tell us about common human beginnings?

JB: What do they tell us about common human beginnings?

HH: Yeah. How many ancestors are there? Is it a Genesis narrative? Is there any support...or is DNA just off the...off of the religious people's ability to deal with?

JB: Well, what's done traditionally with these human migration studies, which is what you're talking about here, is you make measurements between different groups of people that are living today, and there's a big project going on, the Genographic Project, where they're trying to collect 100,000 samples from various groups around the world, and then use those to try to fit with different models, where the people may have come from.

HH: And is it proving successful?

JB: They're collecting data, and the data, I think, is very interesting. What they do is they collect Y chromosome information, so they collect usually about a dozen different sites on the Y chromosome, and measure these different markers, which give you what's called a haplotype. And they also measure, they sequence little sections of mitochondrial DNA, which is passed from mother to daughter. And so you're able to show linkage between different groups. That doesn't show specific groups. Again, genealogically, it just shows general broad, broad strokes of a brush, basically.

HH: And in that research, is there anything to, as the Los Angeles Times put it, shake the foundation of a Mormon's faith?

JB: I don't believe so, because you don't...I mean, it's telling generally what's going on, in terms of history, with lots of assumptions behind that. But again, it's different than what...I work in forensic DNA. That's what I do. I've written the text that's used all over the world in forensic DNA. And so, in forensic DNA, you have basically a chain of custody, where you can trace a link between a DNA profile that's produced, that goes into court, from the original crime scene evidence. And it's a little bit different here, because you don't have that...there's no such chain of custody that exists, certainly for DNA from anybody that may have been in the Book of Mormon, or from any other ancient people. You...what they do...all the published migration studies simply report what the various groups of people living today, if they have various similarities in their DNA. And from there, the scientists then extrapolate and interpret that these various groups must have had ancestors in common, which would lead to similar patters in their descendants.

HH: Now I want...before I go back to Professor Peterson, I also want to ask you about the research scientist, Southerton, quoted in the L.A. Times article. Is he reliable, in your view?

JB: Well, his background, from what I understand, having researched a little bit about what he's published, he's published a couple of articles. He does plant DNA or something. And certainly, he's read up on things that have happened with human DNA, but I’ve published 80 articles with human DNA, work for forensic science, and human identity studies with Y chromosome and...so getting back to your question, I don't think that he sees the picture correctly with how DNA can be done, and primarily because you don't have a calibration point. You don't know...just like in forensic science, you have a suspect and you have evidence. DNA doesn't work in a vacuum. You get a result, you have to compare it to something else. So measuring all of the DNA of people today, you can make some assumptions, but you can't zero in and answer a definitive question about a specific person that lived many thousands of years ago.

HH: So Dr. Peterson, when Southerton says he found no trace of Middle Eastern DNA in the genetic strands of today's American Indians or Pacific Islanders, that does not upset you in the least, or cause you to wonder in the least?

DP: No, not even slightly. I don't expect to find Middle Eastern DNA.

HH: Not in the least?

DP: No, it would be nice if we found it, but if we found it, we'd wonder was this later pollution of the lines, in effect, from times after Columbus? We wouldn't know exactly what it was. And if we did find Semitic DNA, if such a thing can be said to exist, then that wouldn't necessarily prove the Book of Mormon, either.

HH: Alright, let’s go get a couple of calls in...Albert- Indiana...welcome to the program Albert, quick question please....
Albert: Yeah, I joined the Mormon Church about 30 years ago and I’m in the process of conversion to Roman Catholicism, my kids are..

HH: I’ve gotta get a question Albert..quick.

Albert: You know, based on the fact that there is no evidence at all archaeologically or linguistically for The Book of Mormon and now we have the DNA studies, it seems to me that this is just the nail in the coffin.

HH: Alright Dr. Peterson, your response

DP: My response would be um..look I just, you know, I just gave a few pieces of evidence I could go on for an hour or two, in fact I routinely do, um, listing other items of evidence, so to say that there is no linguistic or archaeological evidence for The Book of Mormon is simply untrue and an archaeologist friend of mine, a very eminent archaeologist, Mesoamerican specialist argues that in fact the archaeological evidence, the picture, the overall picture, is now moving strongly in the direction of The book of Mormon in terms of chronological parallels and so on.

HH: I’d like to get him, I’d like to talk to him here at some point. Joe in Tarzana, go ahead, be quick Joe.

Joe: Thank you guys for this show ..um..you said that there is no chain of custody for the DNA and that’s like, like kind of prima facia obvious but um isn’t the assertion of the Mormon Church or Joseph Smith, that these people are descendants of the middle east, isn’t that the chain of custody?

HH: Joe, thank you for the question, let’s go to you Dr. Butler

JB: Yes, yes that is the assertion, that the people today are descendants, but I made the point earlier that you can loose a genetic signature based on dilution over time and loss and I illustrated that through that one paper that was published, a very interesting paper, but more importantly, we don’t know what the genetic signature would..would look like from someone that lived that long ago and so we have no calibration point so we don’t have anything you can scientifically test.

HH: Dr. John Butler of the National Institutes of Standards and Technology, Dr. Daniel Peterson, thanks for staying up late on the East Coast, Dr. Butler, and in Utah, Dr. Peterson. I appreciate your spending the time and getting equal time in, and we'll do it again. And send me the archaeologist thing. I'm fascinated by it. I just gotta go back to the news, Dr. and Dr., thank you, it is the Hugh Hewitt show. Coming right back.

This is Simon Southerton's "official response" to John Butler's comments on FARMS. Simon's comments are in brackets and highlighted red:

By John M. Butler-

On February 16, 2006 the Los Angeles Times ran a front page article questioning the authenticity of the Book of Mormon based on studies of human DNA. Citing DNA "evidence" that suggests an Asian ancestry for people native to the Americas, critics of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints have for the past several years claimed these DNA studies demonstrate that the Book of Mormon account of a group of colonists coming from the Middle East in 600 B.C. cannot be authentic.

The following article briefly addresses questions surrounding the applicability of DNA studies to the peoples whose story is told in the Book of Mormon. The author, John M. Butler, holds a doctoral degree in chemistry from the University of Virginia and is the author of 80 research articles and book chapters on human DNA including ones on Y-chromosome and mitochondrial DNA as applied to human identity testing. He has received a number of awards in the field of forensic genetics and is the author of the award-winning textbook Forensic DNA Typing, now in its second edition. In July 2002, Dr. Butler received the Presidential Early Career Award for Scientists and Engineers from President George W. Bush in a White House ceremony for his work in pioneering modern forensic DNA testing.

Dr. Butler is an active member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and has served for the past four years as the bishop of the Gaithersburg First Ward, Seneca Maryland Stake (near Washington, D.C.). He is currently employed as a research chemist in the Biochemical Science Division at the U.S. National Institute of Standards and Technology, where he directs a project team developing new DNA technologies for forensic and human identity applications.

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What is DNA?

Our cells contain a genetic code known as deoxyribonucleic acid, or DNA. It provides a blueprint for life, determining to a great extent our physical attributes and appearance. We inherit half of our genetic code from our mother and half from our father. The diversity we see among people results from unique combinations of nucleotides, the building blocks of DNA that exist in every living organism. Because of the many different ways these nucleotides can combine, all humans, with the exception of identical twins, differ from each other on a genetic level.

How are DNA ancestry studies performed?

Examining the DNA of an individual and comparing it with the DNA of close relatives can reveal the source of different genetic patterns contributed by parents, grandparents, or other shared ancestors. Genetic markers on the Y-chromosome that are transferred exclusively from father to son are used to examine paternal lineages, while maternal lines are traced by analyzing genetic material called mitochondrial DNA, which is only transferred from mother to offspring.

How do DNA ancestry studies compare to forensic DNA testing used in court cases?

The information derived from any DNA analysis does not work in a vacuum. Test results always compare genetic information from a source in question with the same type of information from a known source. In the case of forensic DNA testing that is widely accepted in courts of law, DNA from a suspected criminal is compared with DNA collected from the scene of a crime. When the DNA matches at the regions examined, then it are likely that the suspect was indeed the person who was involved in the crime. In forensic DNA testing there is a one-to-one correlation of DNA results—the individual's DNA matches the evidence.

In ancestry studies, DNA information from multiple modern population groups is projected over many generations between populations tested. Even though the same genetic markers may be used as in forensic DNA testing, there is usually not a one-to-one unique match being made in ancestry testing. Instead, scientists are often guessing at what genetic signatures existed in the past based on various assumptions—with a bit of educated "story telling" to fill in gaps.2 These stories of human migration patterns are constantly being refined with new genetic research. As noted by John Relethford in his book Genetics and the Search for Modern Human Origins, "Although working in such a young and developing field is exciting, it is also frightening because the knowledge base changes so rapidly".3 Since the methods for examining DNA in this way are far from perfected, drawing final conclusions about the ancestry of a people from current data would not be prudent. In addition, it is important to keep in mind that reference samples are always needed to provide relevant results with any kind of DNA testing. If a reliable reference is not available, confident conclusions cannot be made.

[Butler claims that “reference samples” of DNA, presumably of Israelites who lived in Jerusalem 2,600 years ago, are required to provide a “calibration point” with which to compare the DNA of living Amerindians. Without this he believes that scientists would be “guessing” or “story telling” to fill in the gaps in a populations ancestry. It is absurd to suggest that scientists would need Lehite and Mulekite DNA from 2600 years ago in order to provide a calibration point for DNA research. LDS apologists have already conceded that DNA research has revealed that American Indians are essentially all descended from Asian ancestors. 1 But DNA studies have not yet been carried out on ancient remains of Asians, or American Indians, that predate the migrations to the New World. Even Butler himself is persuaded “that almost all Native Americans tested thus far possess genetic signatures closely resembling modern-day Asians” in spite of the missing calibration point.

One of the attractions of working with DNA is that it carries its own history within its sequence. People who are related to each other carry DNA that shares common spelling changes that that have accumulated throughout time. While it can happen, it is uncommon for these spelling changes disappear. Anthropologists don’t need an ancient DNA sample to confirm relatedness because related DNA lineages by definition share common DNA spelling changes that occurred in their ancestors. These informative DNA spellings are rarely lost over the generations; rather they are inherited down the generations.

Butler appears to be confusing forensic applications of DNA technology with its use in human population genetics. Forensic scientists match individuals to individuals and must get an exact match in DNA samples at many if not all locations in a DNA sequence. This level of evidence is necessary in criminal and other legal proceedings. Molecular anthropologists are not trying to locate an individual’s ancestors; they are generally trying to identify related populations. They focus on a small number of informative spelling changes that define different ethnic groups. All human maternal DNA lineages fall into 25 major DNA lineage families. When greater than 99.6% of the DNA lineages of Native Americans most closely resemble DNA lineages found among Asians this is compelling evidence that they have a common ancestor; evidence sufficiently compelling to convince even LDS apologists.]

What current data exist on Native American DNA?

To date there have been more than 100 scientific articles describing the examination of DNA from thousands of modern-day Native Americans. These studies have shown that almost all Native Americans tested thus far possess genetic signatures closely resembling modern-day Asians and thus conclusions are usually drawn that these populations are related to one another. Since no Israelite genetic connection has yet been made with Native Americans, critics of the Book of Mormon are quick to point out that this information seems to contradict a statement made in the modern introduction to the book that the Lamanites are "the principal ancestors of the American Indians."

[Butler implies by these statements that critics of the Book of Mormon link Native Americans with the Lamanites entirely on the basis of “the principal ancestors” statement in the “modern” introduction to the book. This is a gross misrepresentation. Butler totally ignores generations of doctrinal and prophetic support for the widespread beliefs Mormons hold that happen to be in complete harmony with the introductory statement in the Book of Mormon.

For the record, church leaders and the God speaking to Joseph Smith have declared explicitly who the Lamanites are:

We also bare testimony that the "Indians" (so called) of North and South America are a remnant of the tribes of Israel; as is now made manifest by the discovery and revelation of their ancient oracles and records.
Proclamation of the twelve apostles of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. . . .April, 1845.

Must we, because we believe in . . the Book of Mormon as the history of the aborigines of this continent, must we be expelled from the institutions of our country?
Joseph Smith, Appeal to the Freemen of the State of Vermont, the "Brave Green Mountain Boys", and Honest Men . . .December, 1843.

In this important and interesting book the history of ancient America is unfolded, from its first settlement by a colony that came from the tower of Babel, at the confusion of languages to the beginning of the fifth century of the Christian era. We are informed by these records that America in ancient times has been inhabited by two distinct races of people. The first were called Jaredites and came directly from the tower of Babel. The second race came directly from the city of Jerusalem, about six hundred years before Christ. They were principally Israelites, of the descendants of Joseph. The Jaredites were destroyed about the time that the Israelites came from Jerusalem, who succeeded them in the inheritance of the country. The principal nation of the second race fell into battle towards the close of the fourth century. The remnant are the Indians that now inhabit this country. Joseph Smith - Letter to John Wentworth, editor of the Chicago Democrat 1842.

Joseph Smith – History 1: 34 He said there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from whence they sprang. He also said that the fulness of the everlasting Gospel was contained in it, as delivered by the Savior to the ancient inhabitants;

D&C 28: 8
And now, behold, I say unto you that you shall go unto the Lamanites and preach my gospel unto them; and inasmuch as they receive thy teachings thou shalt cause my church to be established among them; and thou shalt have revelations, but write them not by way of commandment.

D&C 28: 9
And now, behold, I say unto you that it is not revealed, and no man knoweth where the city Zion shall be built, but it shall be given hereafter. Behold, I say unto you that it shall be on the borders by the Lamanites.

D&C 28: 14
And thou shalt assist to settle all these things, according to the covenants of the church, before thou shalt take thy journey among the Lamanites.

D&C 30: 6
And be you afflicted in all his afflictions, ever lifting up your heart unto me in prayer and faith, for his and your deliverance; for I have given unto him power to build up my church among the Lamanites;

D&C 32: 2
And that which I have appointed unto him is that he shall go with my servants, Oliver Cowdery and Peter Whitmer, Jun., into the wilderness among the Lamanites.

D&C 49: 24
But before the great day of the Lord shall come, Jacob shall flourish in the wilderness, and the Lamanites shall blossom as the rose.

D&C 54: 8
And thus you shall take your journey into the regions westward, unto the land of Missouri, unto the borders of the Lamanites.

The belief that Native Americans throughout North, Central and South America (and Polynesia) are the descendants of the Lamanites is not simply based on one unofficial statement in the introduction to the Book of Mormon. This belief is deeply embedded in the LDS church and has had a major influence on the way the Church has interacted with native peoples in the Americas and the Pacific for well over a century. For most of the last 175 years, the Book of Mormon has been presented to native people as a history of their ancestors and, as such, has frequently played a major role in their conversion. For many decades, members have been reassured by successive prophets and apostles that they are the children of Lehi. Frequently, these reminders are delivered during regional, area, and stake conferences and during the dedicatory prayers at temples in areas with predominant indigenous American and Pacific cultures. The Church has invested heavily in schools in what have been thought of as Lamanite regions, particularly in Polynesia. Many Native American and Polynesian members of the Church have received patriarchal blessings in which they have been told they belong to the tribe of Manasseh, the same tribe as Lehi. It is not simply a matter of an “overbelief” in a non-doctrinal portion of modern day Books of Mormon. It is a belief that is deeply entrenched in the church with strong doctrinal foundations in scripture and prophetic authority.]

What do we know about the genetic background of Book of Mormon peoples?

The angel Moroni informed the Prophet Joseph Smith during his first visit on the evening of 21 September 1823 that the Book of Mormon record gave "an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from whence they sprang" (Joseph Smith—History 1:34). The Book of Mormon mentions three different groups that journeyed to the New World: the Lehites (1 Nephi 18), the Jaredites (Ether 6:12), and the Mulekites (Helaman 6:10; 8:21), sometimes referred to as the people of Zarahemla (Omni 1:14–16; Alma 22:30).

The title page of the Book of Mormon proclaims that the Lamanites are a remnant of the house of Israel. Lehi found on the plates of brass recovered from Laban a genealogy of his fathers where he learned that he was a descendant of Joseph (1 Nephi 5:14), specifically from the tribe of Manasseh (Alma 10:3). Mulek is mentioned in Helaman 8:21 as a son of Zedekiah who was king of Judah when Jerusalem fell to the Babylonians (2 Kings 25:7). The Jaredites descended from multiple families who were led by the Lord from the Tower of Babel to the Promised Land (Ether 1:33).

The prophets, who contributed to the Book of Mormon record with a focus on religious teaching rather than geographical or genetic details, provide only a partial picture of the events of their days and usually within the confines of their family lineage. Thus, the Book of Mormon record does not supply sufficient information to provide a reliable calibration point in the past which may serve as a reference for modern day DNA comparisons. DNA information alone therefore cannot disprove the Book of Mormon.

[The Book of Mormon is remarkably specific about the ancestry of Lehi and Mulek and their associates. We know they were Israelites who lived in Jerusalem. Israelite DNA lineages belong to the same family groups found in European populations: the H, I, J, K, N, T, U, V, W and X groups. Essentially all Europeans and Israelites possess one of these lineages; however the frequencies of these lineages differ between the two groups. Other Middle Eastern populations such as the Syrians, Egyptians, Lebanese and other Arabic groups also have similar mitochondrial DNA lineages belonging to these families. There is a smattering (<0.4%)>

Could other people have lived in ancient America concurrently with Book of Mormon peoples? Careful examination and demographic analysis of the Book of Mormon record in terms of population growth and the number of people described implies that other groups were likely present in the promised land when Lehi's family arrived, and these groups may have genetically mixed with the Nephites, Lamanites, and other groups.4 Events related in the Book of Mormon likely took place in a limited region,5 leaving plenty of room for other Native American peoples to have existed.

[The fact that FARMS apologists needed to ask the question “Could other people have lived concurrently with Book of Mormon people?” is evidence enough that the Book of Mormon is silent on the issue. Virtually nobody outside of the apologetic community appears to have read the Book of Mormon carefully enough to notice reference to the hoards of other people apologists claim are mentioned in the text. American Indians not only could have lived in ancient America, between 2000BC and 400AD, they definitely lived in the Americas during that period and for at least 10,000 years prior to that time period. What is unclear is whether Book of Mormon people existed at all, and all reliable evidence to date provides no concrete support for their existence.]

Does DNA testing of modern individuals detect all previous genetic lineages? Another way to state this question is "could a group of people vanish without a genetic trace as measured by Y-chromosome and mitochondrial DNA testing yet be the ancestors of someone living today?" It is important to realize that examination of Y-chromosome and mitochondrial DNA genetic markers permits only a small fraction of an individual's ancestry to be tracked. Most genetic analysis studies of human history involve comparing a group of samples of living individuals to another group of living individuals without any detailed knowledge of the genealogy of the individuals in the groups being tested. These types of DNA studies make assumptions about the average time for each generation in the past along with a fixed mutation rate whereby genetic variation may occur over time. Similarities in the modern populations examined are then used to claim a shared origin between the two populations with an estimated time for divergence between the populations. An interesting study reported in the June 2003 issue of the American Journal of Human Genetics leads me to believe that it is possible for Book of Mormon peoples to be ancestors of modern Native Americans and yet not be easily detected using traditional Y-chromosome and mitochondrial DNA tests. This study, conducted by a group of scientists from a company called deCODE Genetics, used the extensive genealogies of people from Iceland combined with probably the most massive population study ever performed.6 They traced the matrilineal and patrilineal ancestry of all 131,060 Icelanders born after 1972 back to two cohorts of ancestors, one born between 1848 and 1892 and the other between 1798 and 1742. Examining the same Y-chromosome and mitochondrial DNA markers used in other genetic studies, these 131,060 Icelanders revealed highly skewed distributions of descendants to ancestors, with the vast majority of potential ancestors contributing one or no descendants and a minority of ancestors contributing large numbers of descendants.6 In other words, the majority of people living today in Iceland had ancestors living only 150 years ago that could not be detected based on the Y-chromosome and mitochondrial DNA tests being performed yet the genealogical records exist showing that these people lived and were real ancestors. To the point at hand, if many documented ancestors of 150 years ago cannot be seen with Y-chromosome and mitochondrial DNA tests from modern Iceland, then the possibility can exist for people that are reported in the Book of Mormon to have migrated to the Americas over 2600 years ago and yet not have detectable genetic signatures today.

[Butler states that the results of the Helgason study meant that “the majority of people living today in Iceland had ancestors living only 150 years ago that could not be detected based on the Y-chromosome and mitochondrial DNA tests.” What the Iceland study in fact revealed, by linking DNA genealogies with written genealogies, was that most of the people living in Iceland in the eighteenth century have few or no living descendants. The problem in Iceland was not detecting ancestors, it was detecting descendants of most of the people living 250 years ago. For example, Helgason et al. (2003) used Iceland’s extensive genealogical records to determine that 64,150 living female Icelanders were born after 1972 and that there were about 20,443 females born in Iceland between 1698 and 1742. Mitochondrial DNA tests on the living women revealed that 61.8% of them are descended from just 6.6% of women living in the early eighteenth century. Similar results were obtained for males. How could it be that most of the people living in Iceland in the eighteenth century have few or no living descendants? This remarkably high rate of failure of Icelanders living in the early 1700’s to leave descendants was surprising to the authors of the paper. This considerable “genetic drift” they say, occurred in spite of rapid population expansion during the last 300 years. This is the only information that the authors give about Iceland’s population history in this paper. There is, however, much in Iceland’s population history that the authors did not mention. For the first century of those 300 years, from 1701 to 1803, Iceland’s population actually declined from 50,358 to 47,240 due to severe economic hardships.2 Most of Iceland’s population were farm labourers and frequently the poor never married or raised families because it was considered improper for labourers to “fill the earth with ‘weaklings’”.3 In 1783, one of the largest volcanic eruptions in the last 12,000 years rocked Iceland. Mount Laki erupted, killing tens of thousand of cattle and horses and hundreds of thousands of sheep. Between one quarter and a third of the population perished due to fluorine poisoning and smallpox. Between 1870 and 1914, 20% of Iceland’s population emigrated to North America. Since 1914, emigrants have typically outnumbered immigrants. Emigrant groups are likely to have been dominated by younger individuals of reproductive age. The combination of drastic population declines in the eighteenth century due to harsh environmental and economic conditions followed by large-scale emigration during the nineteenth and early twentieth century will have had a dramatic impact on the genetic landscape of Iceland. Many of the descendants of the 50,358 people living in Iceland in 1701 are likely to have died without leaving offspring. Of those who did leave descendants, many may have migrated to North America and their descendants are essentially invisible in the Icelandic studies. Iceland has always been a marginal place for human occupation with its arctic climate and volcanic activity, in contrast to the Promised Land of the Book of Mormon where crops thrived and wildlife and precious metals were found in abundance (1 Ne. 18:24-25). There are also few similarities between the population history of Iceland and the history of the Lehites and Mulekites described in the Book of Mormon. Nephi saw a vision of the New World in about 600 BC in which he saw that his “seed” and “the seed of [his] brethren” had multiplied until they did “number as many as the sand of the sea” (1 Ne. 12:1). Numerous scriptures throughout the Book of Mormon detail the fulfilment of this prophecy. In 588 BC the Lehite populations were prospering “exceedingly” and “multiplying” in the land (2 Ne. 5:13) and by 399 BC they had “multiplied exceedingly, and spread upon the face of the land” (Jarom 1:8). When the descendants of Mulek join the Nephites, we are informed that they were “exceedingly numerous” (Omni 1:17). By about 124 BC there were so many people in the Book of Mormon civilizations that they couldn’t number them because they had “multiplied exceedingly and waxed great in the land” (Mosiah 2:2). By about 46 BC they had spread until they “covered the face of the whole earth, from the sea south to the sea north, from the sea west to the sea east (Hel. 3:8). The argument that Lamanite DNA may have gone extinct relies entirely on the belief that American Indians swamped Amerisraelite populations soon after their arrival. These scriptures imply the opposite. The descendants of the Lehites and Mulekites were not a minor group of people swallowed up by surrounding Native Americans. They formed substantial populations that were ruled over by Lehi’s descendants. Are we to believe that these populations were largely comprised of American Indians who swamped out the Israelite genes yet didn’t assume any significant influence in these civilizations? The Icelandic research is of relevance when considering the extinction of DNA lineages of small groups of individuals in a population. DNA lineages can and do go extinct but the DNA lineages of a population generally don’t. This is even revealed in the Icelandic example. When we compare the proportions of European DNA lineages present in living Icelanders, it is very similar to the proportions present in the ancestral population and none of the lineages went extinct.]

Shouldn't we be able to detect Israelite DNA if the Lamanites are descended from Lehi and are the principal ancestors to modern-day Native Americans? First, as discussed above, we do not have enough information from the Book of Mormon to confidently determine a source population for the Lehites or Mulekites, and so we cannot compare this population with modern-day Native American results.

[The suggestion that we have no calibration point, and hence no knowledge of what Lehi and Mulek’s DNA would look like is groundless. As mentioned earlier, Israelite and Middle Eastern DNA lineages are quite well characterised. To date there is no evidence for the presence of Middle Eastern DNA in American Indians.]

Another point to consider is that present-day Native Americans represent only a fraction of previous genetic lineages in the Americas because of large-scale death by diseases brought to the New World by European conquerors. As researcher Michael Crawford concludes in his book The Origins of Native Americans: Evidence from Anthropological Genetics, "This population reduction has forever altered the genetics of the surviving groups, thus complicating any attempts at reconstructing the pre-Columbian genetic structure of most New World groups."7 Again without reliable reference samples from the past we cannot proclaim the Book of Mormon true or false based on DNA data.

[Are we to assume that the Lamanites were less fit than native populations? Since the Lehites and Mulekites carried their genes from the Old World, they are likely to have carried more, rather than less resistance to Old World diseases than American Indians.]

In forensic science, a documented "chain of custody" is crucial to verifying a link between the DNA profile produced in the lab with the original crime scene evidence. No such "chain of custody" exists with DNA or genealogical records connecting people from Book of Mormon times to people living today. Part of the problem in this whole contrived controversy is the over-simplification of results from DNA studies that are being conducted by scientists in an effort to examine potential patterns of human migration throughout ancient history. The impact of this over-simplification is in many ways similar to the impact that the popular TV show CSI: Crime Scene Investigation has had over the past few years on forensic laboratories. In the name of entertainment, the CSI television shows have created a perception where the general public now thinks that forensic scientists go to crime scenes, work in fancy and well-equipped laboratories, question suspects in a case, and obtain conclusive results on every complex case in a matter of a few minutes. The truth is that scientists work in poorly supplied labs, are underpaid, and in many situations have large backlogs of samples that prevent rapid response to new individual cases. In addition, forensic scientists never interrogate the suspects of a crime and many cases are never solved. The public perception of CSI has now created an expectation in many juries that DNA evidence should be present in every case. Even with this over-simplification of its portrayal of forensic laboratories, there is some truth within the CSI movie sets. For example, the instruments on the TV show are real. However, they do not collect data and generate results as rapidly as portrayed nor are complex cases solved so succinctly. Likewise, oversimplification of DNA results and what they are capable of revealing in examining the authenticity of the Book of Mormon has been greatly exaggerated by critics of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. For the many reasons stated above, DNA testing results from modern Native Americans do not negate the possibility of Book of Mormon peoples having existed anciently on the American continent.

[Accredited DNA testing facilities are required by law to follow Chain of Custody documentation procedures to ensure results will be legally admissible (accepted by courts and other government agencies). Chain of Custody requires that: Samples are collected by an impartial third party, such as a clinic or laboratory. The individuals tested are positively identified (i.e.they posses government-issued ID, and they are photographed and fingerprinted for records.). The samples are carefully tracked and matched to each test participant throughout the entire DNA testing process. Are we to believe that DNA studies would only be of value if we had positively identified remains of a Lamanite? Is Butler suggesting that molecular anthropologists are often shoddy in their research practices and that they may have got their results mixed up? There are several important factors that are powerful motivators for scientists to be particularly careful in their research procedures. The major driver is that other scientists may try to replicate their work. Falsified results are difficult to replicate. While careless research and even fraud does occur among scientists, it is the rare exception rather than the rule.]

Can science ever provide a final answer to a religious question? Today's society is impatient and wants quick and easy answers to everything. In science we make measurements and conduct studies hoping to advance knowledge. As an active DNA researcher for the past 13 years, I can affirm that we are uncovering new information with each passing year that gives us a better picture of the past and the present. But we must remember that that picture is in no way complete or comprehensive. Science can demonstrate that certain assumptions are unlikely, but it cannot prove that testimonies are false. I believe that science and religion can co-exist as long as we remember that each measures different things (see Isaiah 55:8-9 and 1 Corinthians 2). The definitive proof of the Book of Mormon's authenticity comes in the Lord's laboratory of spiritual revelation by following the formula laid out in Moroni 10:3–5.8

[People have been waiting for 175 years for credible scientific evidence of any description to support the historical claims of the Book of Mormon. How long do we need to wait to prove we are patient? With each passing year new information sheds more light on the colonization of the Americas and with each year we find the claims of the Book of Mormon being shrunk by LDS apologists. Many Mormons have a testimony that Native Americans are largely descended from Israelites as a consequence of believing the Book of Mormon. Feeling-based beliefs are far less reliable than Mormons would care to admit and science has proven that these beliefs have no basis in fact. Joseph Smith is the source of the Book of Mormon as well as the source of the miraculous feeling-based formula that is supposed to prove beyond a doubt it is true. If the Book of Mormon has no place in reality could there also be a flaw in his feeling-based truth formula? I believe that faith can flourish when people are told the truth from whatever and all available sources. It makes no sense to insist on a belief in the unbelievable. There is an important difference here. In my case, for thirty years my religious orientation was accompanied by a distorted understanding of the true history of America’s past. Not only did I know little of the science that was applicable to this issue, I, like many Mormons, had been bombarded with the widespread urban legends in the church. BYU scholars always seemed to be finding archaeological evidence in Mesoamerica that supported the Book of Mormon and I was informed that the Smithsonian Institution had used the Book of Mormon as a guide in some of their research. Scientific truth exposed my faith in a book that has no historical connection with the ancestors of the American Indians or Polynesians.]

Notes *Points of view expressed here are those of the author and in no way reflect the official opinion of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or the U.S. Department of Commerce or National Institute of Standards and Technology. 1. See Butler, J.M. Forensic DNA Typing: Biology, Technology, and Genetics of STR Markers (2nd Edition), Elsevier: New York (2005). 2. Goldstein, D.B. and Chikhi, L. "Human migrations and population structure: what we know and why it matters" Annual Review of Genomics and Human Genetics 3:129-152 (2002); see quotation on p. 143. 3. Relethford, J.H. Genetics and the Search for Modern Human Origins. Wiley-Liss: New York (2001); quotation from p. 205. 4. See Sorenson, J.L. "When Lehi's party arrived in the land, did they find others there?" Journal of Book of Mormon Studies 1:1–34 (1992). 5. See Sorenson, J.L. An Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon. Deseret Book: Salt Lake City (1985). 6. Helgason, A., Hrafnkelsson, B., Gulcher, J.R., Ward, R., Stefansson, K. "A population-wide coalescent analysis of Icelandic matrilineal and patrilineal genealogies: evidence for a faster evolutionary rate of mtDNA lineages than Y chromosomes." American Journal of Human Genetics 72: 1370-1388 (2003). 7. Crawford, M.H. The Origins of Native Americans: Evidence from Anthropological Genetics. Cambridge University Press: New York (1998); quotation from p. 261. 8. See Butler, J.M. "A few thoughts from a believing DNA scientist" Journal of Book of Mormon Studies 12(1): 36-37 (2003). 1 See Dean H. Leavitt, Jonathon C. Marshall, and Keith A. Crandall, “The Search for the Seed of Lehi: How Defining Alternative Models Helps in the Interpretation of Genetic Data,” Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 36 (Winter 2003): 133–50; D. Jeffrey Meldrum and Trent D. Stephens “Who Are the Children of Lehi?” Journal of Book of Mormon Studies 12 (2003): 38–51; David A. McClellan “Detecting Lehi’s Genetic Signature: Possible, Probable, or Not?” FARMS Review 15 (2003): 35-90; and Michael F. Whiting, “DNA and the Book of Mormon: A Phylogenetic Perspective,” Journal of Book of Mormon Studies 12 (2003): 24-35. Ryan Parr “Missing the Boat to Ancient America … Just Plain Missing the Boat,” FARMS Review 17/1 (2005): 83-106. 2 Iceland. (2006). Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved March 6, 2006, from Encyclopædia Britannica Online http://search.eb.com/eb/article-10074 3 The Arts faculty of the University of Manitoba has historical information about the immigration of Icelanders to Manitoba. See http://www.umanitoba.ca/faculties/arts/
icelandic/IceCan/history.htm.

Again, here is the link to the LA Times article "Bedrock of a Faith Is Jolted."

Samuel the Utahnite

Brent Belnap, Mormon Stake President In Manhattan, New York; Interviewed By Matt Lauer On The Today Show.

samueltheutahnite@yahoo.com (Samuel the Utahnite) — Thu, 15 Feb 2007 19:07:00 +0000

MP3 File

Brent Belnap is the Mormon Stake President in Manhattan, New York. He went on the Today show with Matt Lauer in November of 2005, to tell the world that Mormonism is just an "alternative religion" now and being taught as "an alternative" by current missionaries and not as "the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth" and not as the "only true path to God and Jesus."

Of course Brent Belnap was under the direction of the Mormon Church Hierarchy in Salt Lake City, because no one ever goes on a national talk show without their explicit permission and approval and without being told what to say in advance.

Also, nothing that Brent Belnap said was ever corrected on the Mormon Hierarchy's "mistakes in the media" page, which they once renamed "comments in the news." The URL, still said "mistakes" in it, up until they revamped their website a couple of weeks ago!! So the statement stands, that Mormonism is just "an alternative", which should surprise a lot of people out there, namely the missionaries and members.

Here is the main question and response, from this interview:

Matt Lauer, Today Show Anchor:

"...are saying that the Church of Latter-Day Saints is the 'ONLY PATH TO GOD AND SALVATION' or are you presenting it as an alternative?"

Brent Belnap, LDS Stake President, Manhattan:

"Ya know, I think it's more as an alternative."

So, Mormonism is supposedly being presented as an alternative religion now?!! That's news to me; are there any former or current Mormon missionaries out there, that taught or are now teaching Mormonism, as just "an alternative" on your mission? If that was the case, what would be the point of even going, right? That's a lot of sacrifice, time and money being spent for some "alternative", isn't it?

During my 2 year mission, I taught the Joseph Smith First Vision, right out of the "official" Joseph Smith History, in which Jesus is said to have stated to Joseph Smith, that every church in existence, at that time, was "wrong" and "false" and "all their creeds were an abomination in his sight" and that "those professors were all corrupt."

As I stated above, according to Doctrine and Covenants 1:30, again supposedly quoting Jesus Christ, through Joseph Smith, says that the Mormon Church is "THE ONLY TRUE AND LIVING CHURCH UPON THE FACE OF THE WHOLE EARTH..."

Now, that doesn't sound like an alternative religion to me, unless you really want to be a member of those other abominable and false religions, with false professors/preachers; thus the reason for the 52,000 + Mormon missionaries, all around the world, knocking on doors and trying to convert people from their religion to Mormonism, 70-80 hours a week, 365 days a year.

Why would they do this for some "alternative", if everyone is doing just fine in their current religion or "alternative?" Why is Mormonism necessary, if it's just "an alternative?"

Samuel the Utahnite

Gordon B. Hinckley's Interview With A German Reporter, Prior To And In Preparation For, The "Mormon Winter Olympics", That Were Coming Soon.

samueltheutahnite@yahoo.com (Samuel the Utahnite) — Sat, 03 Feb 2007 23:38:00 +0000

MP3 File

TRANSCRIPT

REPORTER:

PRESIDENT HINCKLEY, WHAT ARE YOUR EXPECTATIONS, YOUR DESIRES, YOUR WISHES, FOR THE OLYMPIC GAMES HERE IN SALT LAKE CITY?

HINCKLEY:

WELL, I EXPECT GREAT THINGS IN THE FIRST PLACE, IT'S A WONDERFUL THING THAT'S HAPPENING. I'M VERY HAPPY THAT SALT LAKE CITY HAS THE OPPORTUNITY OF HOSTING THE OLYMPIC GAMES. THAT WILL…THE GAME WILL BRING HERE PEOPLE FROM ACROSS THE WORLD. AND THROUGH TELEVISION. UH, PEOPLE EVERYWHERE, MILLIONS, BILLIONS, WILL LOOK IN ON THIS COMMUNITY. IT'S A GREAT COMMUNITY UNDERTAKING, AND A GREAT FESTIVAL OF THE WORLD, OF ATHELETES, WHO ARE EXCELLING, TRYING TO EXCEL BEFORE THE WORLD. THEY'RE SPEAKING OF EXCELLENCE, OF PERFORMANCE, OF VICTOR…VICTORY, AND ALL THAT IS A WONDERFUL THING. I LOOK FORWARD TO IT, AND I'M PLEASED THAT IT'S HAPPENING. AND WE WANT TO BE GRACIOUS IN EVERY WAY WE CAN, FRIENDLY, HOSPITABLE, TO ALL WHO COME HERE.

REPORTER:

YOUR MESSAGE ABOUT THE LDS CHURCH, WOULD YOU LIKE…WHAT WOULD YOU LIKE TO INTRODUCE TO THE WORLD?

HINCKLEY:

WHAT WOULD WE LIKE TO INTRODUCE TO THE WORLD?

REPORTER:

YES, ABOUT YOUR CHURCH.

HINCKLEY:

ABOUT AN UNDERSTANDING OF THIS CHURCH.

REPORTER:

YES.

HINCKLEY:

WELL, THIS IS A VERY INTERESTING CHURCH. THIS CHURCH BEGAN ON THE SOIL OF AMERICA, IT'S THE ONLY CHURCH TO COME OUT OF AMERICA, WHICH HAS SPREAD ACROSS THE WORLD. WE NOW HAVE MORE MEMBERS OF THE CHURCH OUTSIDE THE UNITED STATES THAN WE HAVE IN THE UNITED STATES. SUBSTANTIALLY MORE. WE'RE GROWING. IN ABOUT A HUNDRED AND SIXTY NATIONS. WE HAVE A GREAT, WORLD-WIDE UNDERTAKING. WE COME WITH A MESSAGE OF PEACE. A MESSAGE OF LOVE. A MESSAGE OF …THAT GOD HAS SPOKEN TO BLESS HIS CHILDREN, TO BRING THEM LIFE AND KNOWLEDGE AND UNDERSTANDING. AND A GREATER APPRECIATION OF WHO THEY ARE, AND WHAT THEY CAN ACCOMPLISH, AND DO WITH THEIR LIVES. OUR PURPOSES ARE ALL POSITIVE. AND WE HOPE ARE BENEFICIAL TO ALL WHO WE TOUCH, WHEREVER WE GO.

REPORTER:

YES. WHAT SHOULD BE YOUR PERSONAL LEGACY, MR. PRESIDENT, WHEN YOUR TIME WILL COMING TO AN END, YOUR PERSONAL LEGACY TO YOUR CHURCH?

HINCKLEY:

MY WHAT?

REPORTER:

PERSONAL LEEGACY…

[OFF CAMERA WOMAN: "LEGACY."]

REPORTER:

LEGACY.

HINCKLEY:

LEGACY? MY PERSONAL LEGACY?

REPORTER:

YEAH.

HINCKLEY:

YOU THINK MY TIME'S COMING TO AN END DO YOU?

REPORTER:

NO, NO, NO, NO, NOT IN THIS WAY. WHAT'S YOUR PROGRAM, WHAT DO YOU WANT TO…

HINCKLEY:

WELL, I JUST WANT TO BUILD UNDERSTANDING ACROSS THE WORLD, I…I SEE THE GREAT TRAGEDIES THAT ARE GOING ON IN THIS WORLD. THE BITTERNESS THAT EXISTS AMONG PEOPLE. IN SO MANY AREAS OF THE WORLD. I'M…I BELIEVE THAT OUR FATHER IN HEAVEN THAT LOVES HIS CHILDREN WOULD HAVE THEM LIVE TOGETHER IN PEACE AND HARMONY AND LOVE AND RESPECT. ONE FOR ANOTHER. AND MY GREAT DESIRE, MY GREAT AMBITION, IS TO BUILD THAT DESIRE, TO BRING ABOUT PEACE, AND UNDERSTANDING AND RESPECT AMONG PEOPLE, WHEREVER THEY MAY BE FOUND.

REPORTER:

YOU JUST, UH, SPOKE SOMETHING IN THIS DIRECTION, YOUR CHURCH, EXPERIENCING GROWTH, MORE THAN…FIFTY PERCENT ARE LIVING OUTSIDE OF THE UNITED STATES. DO YOU SEE SOME THEOLOGICAL PROBLEMS…WHEN PEOPLE, MORE AND MORE PEOPLE ARE COMING FROM DIFFERENT CULTURES, MAYBE FROM OCEANEA, LATIN AMERICA…

HINCKLEY:

NO, I DON'T SEE ANY PROBLEMS. I THINK WE'VE HAD ENOUGH EXPERIENCE TO SHOW TO OURSELVES THAT REALLY THERE ARE NO SERIOUS PROBLEMS. PEOPLE ARE THE SAME EVERYWHERE. WE'RE ALL ALIKE, WE'RE ALL SONS AND DAUGHTERS OF GOD. WE ALL RESPOND TO THE SAME IMPULSES, THE SAME TRUTHS, AND WE ALL HAVE AMBITIONS OF ONE KIND OR ANOTHER. PEOPLE ARE VERY…SO MUCH ALIKE, REGARDLESS OF THEIR NATIONALITY, REGARDLESS OF THE NATION FROM WHICH THEY COME. WE'VE HAD GREAT EXPERIENCE IN THIS MATTER, WORKING INTERNATIONALLY. AND WE FEEL VERY OPTIMISTIC ABOUT IT. WISH TO GO FORWARD, DO ALL WE CAN, BUILD BROTHERHOOD, AMONG THE PEOPLE OF THE EARTH.

REPORTER:

YOUR MISSIONARIES…IS VERY SUCCESSFUL. I READ AND HEARD. BUT WHY DO YOU NEVER PUBLISH THE FIGURES OF DISSIDENTS?

HINCKLEY:

OF DISSIDENTS?

REPORTER:

YES.

HINCKLEY:

OH, WE HAVE A FEW DISSIDENTS. WE HEAR FROM THEM. THEY'RE NOT QUIET, THEY MAKE THEMSELVES KNOWN, BUT WE DON'T HAVE MANY DISSIDENTS, REALLY. VERY FEW.

REPORTER:

VERY FEW.

HINCKLEY:

THEY'RE NOT…THEY'RE VERY FEW, REALLY. ONCE IN A WHILE, NOT FREQUENTLY AT ALL. NO. OUR PEOPLE ARE VERY CONGENIAL, HAPPY PEOPLE. WE WORK TOGETHER, AND HAVE A GOOD TIME, AND FEEL THEY BELONG TO A GREAT ORGANIZATION. LOVE ONE ANOTHER. AND ENJOY LIFE. WHETHER THEY'RE GERMANS, AMERICANS, SCANDINAVIANS, JAPANESE, AUSTRALIANS, IT'S THE SAME EVERYWHERE.

REPORTER:

UNTIL 1978, NO PERSON OF COLOR ATTAINED PRIESTHOOD IN YOUR CHURCH. WHY IT TOOK SO LONG TIME TO OVERCOME THE RACISM?

HINCKLEY:

I DON'T KNOW. I DON'T KNOW. I CAN ONLY SAY THAT. BUT IT'S…WE'RE…IT'S HERE NOW. WE'RE CARRYING ON A VERY EXTENSIVE WORK IN AFRICA, FOR INSTANCE. WE'RE CARRYING A VERY SUBSTANTIAL WORK IN BRAZIL. WE'RE WORKING AMONG THESE PEOPLE, WE'RE DEVELOPING THEM. UH, WE'VE HAVE THEM AMONG THE LEADERSHIP OF THE CHURCH. AND THEY'RE ABLE, THEY DO A GREAT WORK, AND WE LOVE THEM, AND APPRECIATE THEM. AND RESPECT THEM, AND ARE TRYING TO HELP THEM.

REPORTER:

THE LDS CHURCH OFFICIALLY…IS OFFICIALLY IN THE STATES, THE CHURCH, WITHOUT ANY DOUBT. IN EUROPE, SOMETIMES IS CONSIDERED BY THE OTHER CHURCHES, OLDER CHURCHES I WOULD SAY, AS A RELIGIOUS SECT. THERE ARE NO ECUMENICAL CONTACTS WITH OTHER CHURCHES. WHY IS THIS SO, AND MAYBE YOU WOULD LIKE BETTER CONTACTS, TO HAVE BETTER CONTACTS?

HINCKLEY:

WE REGRET THAT, IF THERE BE ANY OF THAT, WE'RE SORRY. WE THINK THAT COMES FROM A LACK OF UNDERSTANDING, A MISUNDERSTANDING. WE INVITE OUR CRITICS, ANY OF THEM, TO MEET WITH US, TO INVESTIGATE US, TO SEE WHAT WE TEACH, TO BECOME ACQUAINTED WITH US. TO OBSERVE OUR PROGRAM. WE THINK AS THEY COME TO UNDERSTAND THAT, UNDERSTAND US, AND WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO DO, THAT ALL THAT WILL DISAPPEAR. WE THINK WE'RE PART OF THE GREAT BROTHERHOOD OF CHRIST, ACROSS THE WORLD. TESTIFYING OF HIM, TEACHING HIS TEACHINGS, BUILDING HIS SENSE OF BROTHERHOOD AMONG PEOPLE EVERYWHERE. LIFTING OTHERS, WE CARRY ON A GREAT HUMANITARIAN EFFORT. WE HAVE EXPENDED MILLIONS UPON MILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN HELPING PEOPLE IN THE UNFORTUNATE AREAS OF THE WORLD, WHO FOUND THEMSELVES IN DISTRESS BECAUSE OF WAR, OR BECAUSE OF FAMINE, OR BECAUSE OF OTHER MISFORTUNES. WE'VE REACHED OUT TO HELP THEM. NONE OF THEM MEMBERS OF THE CHURCH, WE HAVE A GREAT CONCERN, A GREAT LOVE, FOR THE PEOPLE EVERYWHERE, FOR THOSE WHO SUFFER PARTICULARLY, AND WE HAVE TRIED IN A VERY REAL WAY TO HELP THEM. WE WORK, FOR INSTANCE, THROUGH THE GERMAN RED CROSS, IN SOME OF OUR EFFORTS, AND HAVE DONE SO AND FIND THEM VERY EFFICIENT, AND VERY ABLE IN HELPING WITH OUR HUMANITARIAN EFFORTS.

REPORTER:

YES, TWO DAYS AGO, I HAVE SEEN YOUR HUMANITARIAN CENTER, AND I HAVE GREAT RESPECT FOR WHAT YOU PEOPLE ARE DOING, AND…YES, BUT MY QUESTION WAS, WOULD YOU PREFER, WOULD YOU PREFER TO HAVE BETTER RELATIONS TO THE OTHER OLDER CHURCHES?

HINCKLEY:

OF COURSE, YES, OF COURSE WE WOULD. OF COURSE WE WOULD, WE'D LIKE TO TALK WITH THEM, WE'D LIKE TO RECOGNIZE THEM. I RECOGNIZE THAT EVERY CHURCH DOES GOOD. THERE ISN'T ANY QUESTION IN MY MIND ABOUT THAT. THEY ALL DO GOOD. DO WE HAVE SOMETHING TO OFFER? YES. I SAY TO PEOPLE OF OTHER CHURCHES, YOU BRING ALL THE GOOD THAT YOU HAVE, AND THEN LET US SEE IF WE CAN ADD TO THAT. NOW THAT'S OUR WHOLE PURPOSE, THAT'S OUR MISSION, THAT'S THE WAY WE OPERATE. WE WANT TO BE COOPERATIVE, WE WANT TO WORK WITH OTHER PEOPLE. WE DO SO RIGHT HERE IN THIS COMMUNITY. WE HAVE GOOD RELATIONSHIPS WITH OTHER CHURCHES. WE GET ALONG VERY WELL WITH THE CATHOLIC PEOPLE, PROTESTANT PEOPLE, OTHER PEOPLES. ISLAM PEOPLES, PEOPLE OF ISLAM. WE…WE HAVE A GOOD RELATIONSHIP. WE LIKE TO BUILD THAT KIND OF RELATIONSHIP WHEREVER WE GO, YES.

REPORTER:

CRITICS OF YOUR CHURCH MAINTAIN THAT LDS IS ANTI-DEMOCRATIC. WHAT IS YOUR ANSWER?

HINCKLEY:

ANTI-DEMOCRATIC?

REPORTER:

ANTI-DEMOCRATIC.

HINCKLEY:

NOTHING COULD BE MORE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH. WE'RE A VERY DEMOCRATIC ORGANIZATION. OUR PRIESTHOOD, FOR INSTANCE, PRIESTHOOD IS AVAILABLE FOR EVERY WORTHY MAN. WE DON'T HAVE A FEW MINISTERS, TRAINED IN SEMINARIES. THE PROGRAM OF THE CHURCH IS CARRIED FORWARD BY THE MEMBERS OF THE CHURCH. EVERY WORTHY MAN MAY HOLD THE PRIESTHOOD. A MAN MAY SERVE AS A BISHOP. MAY AS A SERVE AS THE HEAD OF A STAKE, A DIOCESE IN THE CHURCH. THE CHURCH IS RUN BY PEOPLE WHO SERVE ON A VOLUNTEER BASIS. IN THE MOST DEMOCRATIC KIND OF SOCIETY THAT YOU CAN IMAGINE. WHERE THEY ALL WORK TOGETHER, EVERYONE HAS A RESPONSIBILITY. EVERYONE IS EXPECTED TO MAKE A CONTRIBUTION TO THE OVERALL EFFORT OF THE CHURCH.

REPORTER:

YES. ANOTHER CRITICS ABOUT FINANCES, I READ IN DIFFERENT MAGAZINES THE RUMOR THAT YOUR CHURCH IS VERY WEALTHY, AND I'D LIKE THE NUMBER OF 30 MILL…BILLION DOLLARS, US DOLLARS, WHAT DO YOU RESPOND?

HINCKLEY:

THAT'S SOMEBODY'S GUESS. THAT'S JUST A WILD GUESS. WELL, THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS, THIS, YES…IF YOU COUNT ALL OF OUR ASSETS, YES, WE ARE WELL-OFF. BUT THOSE ASSETS, YOU HAVE TO KNOW THIS, ARE NOT MONEY-PRODUCING. THOSE ASSETS ARE MONEY-CONSUMING. THOSE ASSETS, INCLUDING MEETING HOUSES, CHURCHES, THOUSANDS OF THEM ACROSS THE WORLD, THEY INCLUDE TEMPLES, THEY INCLUDE UNIVERSITIES, THEY INCLUDE WELFARE PROJECTS, THEY INCLUDE EDUCATIONAL FACILITIES, THEY INCLUDE ALL THE MISSIONARY WORK, THEY INCLUDE HUMANITARIAN WORK, THEY INCLUDE ALL THESE THINGS WHICH USE MONEY. WHICH DON'T PRODUCE MONEY. THE CHURCH IS…THE INCOME OF THE CHURCH COMES FROM THE CONSECRATIONS OF THE PEOPLE, WHO TITHE THEMSELVES, PAY THEIR TITEHS, THE ANCIENT LAW OF THE TITHE IS THE CHURCH'S LAW OF THE MANSE. AND THAT'S WHERE THE MONEY COMES WHICH OPERATES THE CHURCH. IF YOU LOOK AT OUR BALANCE SHEET, THAT SHOWS ALL THE FACILITIES THAT WE HAVE, AND THE PROGRAMS WE CARRY, WE APPEAR VERY WEALTHY. BUT YOU MUST REALIZE THAT ALL OF THOSE PROGRAMS CONSUME MONEY, THEY DON'T PRODUCE IT. THAT THE MONEY WHICH WE USE COMES FROM THE CONSECRATIONS OF THE PEOPLE.

REPORTER:

IN MY COUNTRY, THE…WE SAY THE PEOPLE'S CHURCHES, THE PROTESTANTS, THE CATHOLICS, THEY PUBLISH ALL THEIR BUDGETS, TO ALL THE PUBLIC.

HINCKLEY:

YEAH. YEAH.

REPORTER:

WHY IS IT IMPOSSIBLE FOR YOUR CHURCH?

HINCKLEY:

WELL, WE SIMPLY THINK THAT THE…THAT INFORMATION BELONGS TO THOSE WHO MADE THE CONTRIBUTION, AND NOT TO THE WORLD. THAT'S THE ONLY THING. YES.

REPORTER:

NOW, MR. PRESIDENT, ONE OF…ONE QUESTION WHICH IS A LITTLE BIT COMPLICATED FOR ME TO UNDERSTAND, BUT I HEARD IT AND ONE COLLEAGUE ASKED ME TO ASK IT. WHAT WILL BE YOUR POSITION WHEN DNA ANALYSIS WILL SHOW THAT IN THE HISTORY NEVER HAVE BEEN AN IMMIGRATION FROM ISRAEL TO THE NORTH…TO NORTH AMERICA? IT COULD BE THAT THE SCIENTISTS WILL FIND OUT…

HINCKLEY:

WELL, IT HASN'T HAPPENED. THAT HASN'T BEEN DETERMINED YET. ALL I CAN SAY IS THAT'S SPECULATED. NO ONE REALLY KNOWS THE ANSWER TO THAT, NOT AT THIS POINT.

REPORTER:

OKAY. LAST QUESTION. I UNDERSTOOD IT. MR. PRESIDENT, DO YOU AGREE WITH ME TO SAY…THAT BUT I WANT TO ASK ANOTHER QUESTION, DO YOU AGREE WITH ME THAT SPECIAL CHURCH RELIGIONS IN THIS TIME HAVE THEIR OWN HIGH RESPONSIBILITY OF PEACE ALL OVER THE WORLD?

HINCKLEY:

YES, OF COURSE. WE HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY FOR PEACE. EVERY RELIGION HAS A RESPONSIBLE TO WORK…TO WORK FOR PEACE. NOW, THAT'S OUR RESPONSBILITY ALONG WITH OTHERS. AND WITH MEN AND WOMEN OF GOOD WILL EVERYWHERE, TO BRING ABOUT PEACE IN THE WORLD, WE ALL DESIRE IT, REALLY. WE'RE TRYING TO WORK FOR IT. I DON'T KNOW WHY IT'S SO DIFFICULT TO ACHIEVE, BUT IT IS, AND THAT'S UNFORTUNATE. BUT WE KEEP WORKING, WE KEEP STRIVING, WE KEEP MOVING FORWARD, WE KEEP MAKING THE EFFORT, AND I BELIEVE THAT THE WORLD IS A BETTER PLACE FOR THE EFFORTS OF THOSE WHO HAVE TRIED TO IMPROVE IT.

REPORTER:

THANK YOU, MR. PRESIDENT.

HINCKLEY:

THANK YOU VERY, VERY MUCH. THANK YOU FOR BEING WITH US.

Samuel the Utahnite

Gordon B. Hinckley's Interview On 60 Minutes With Mike Wallace

samueltheutahnite@yahoo.com (Samuel the Utahnite) — Sat, 27 Jan 2007 00:32:00 +0000

MP3 File

Here is the full transcript:

Transcription courtesy of Robert J. Woolley

[Mike Wallace alone in studio, SLC temple as backdrop]

Mike Wallace (MW): If you believe, as a lot of Americans do, that this country is going to hell in a handbasket, spend some time, as we did, with the people who run the Mormon Church, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Right now they are one of the fastest-growing religions in the world, and the 7th-largest church in America, and they are bucking the trend. The faithful Mormon consumes no alcohol, no tobacco, no caffeine, does not engage in premarital or extramarital sex.

But isn't it true that they engage in polygamy? No, not any more. It was once, but they gave it up when Utah became a state more than a hundred years ago. It is rare, almost unheard of, for the president and prophet of the church to open up and talk as freely and easily as Gordon B. Hinckley did to us for this Easter Sunday story, which begins at the beginning in New York state, not Utah, where Mormons believe that God and Jesus appeared one day before a 14-year-old farm boy.

[Hinckley interview]

MW: Your church says God and Jesus spoke with your founder Joseph Smith back in eighteen hundred and twenty and told him to start this church. You believe that.

Gordon B. Hinckley (GBH): Yes, sir.

MW: He was 14 years old...

GBH: Yes, sir.

MW: ...a backwoods farm boy...

GBH: Yes, sir.

MW: ... in New York State.

GBH: That's the miracle of it.

MW [voiceover; footage of Marriott corporate offices]: You'd expect the head of the church to believe it, but so does Bill Marriott, chief of the Marriott hotel chain, a hard-headed businessman, and he's a Mormon.

[Interview with Willard Marriott (WM)]

MW: Fourteen years old, and God and Jesus come to see him? You believe that?

WM: Yes, I do. We believe that the early church of Jesus Christ faded away, and that it came back to Joseph Smith.

MW [voiceover; footage of Hatch on senate floor]: And the senior US Senator from Utah, Orrin Hatch, a Mormon, believes it, too.

[Interview with Orrin Hatch (OH)]

OH: We believe that we know that this happened.

MW [voiceover; footage from the church film "The First Vision"]: Here is how a church film portrays it. And what began with God, Jesus, and a single farm boy [footage of General Conference] has now become a worldwide religion with more than 9 million members. But more than a religion, Mormonism is a lifestyle, an island of morality, they believe, in a time of moral decay. President Hinckley acknowledges it is not easy to follow the Mormon faith. He calls it the most demanding religion in America.

[Hinckley interview]

GBH: It is demanding. And that's one of the things that attracts people to this church. It, it stands as an anchor in a world of shifting values.

MW [voiceover; footage of Hinckley interview]: Example. Mormons adhere to a very strict health code.

[Hinckley interview]

MW: No alcohol, no tobacco, no coffee, no tea, not even caffeinated soft drinks...

GBH: Right.

MW: ...eat meat sparingly, exercise...

GBH: Right.

MW: ...get plenty of sleep.

GBH: Right. It's wonderful!

MW [voiceover; footage of people coming to church]: And the result? Mormons live several years longer than most other Americans. Another reason they live longer, Mormons say, is that they suffer less from stress, because they have strong and supportive families. Many Mormons marry early and have lots of children. [Footage of Steve Young.] But Steve Young is still single. The star quarterback of the San Francisco 49ers is also the great-great-great-grandson of Brigham Young, one of the Mormons' early leaders. Steve, at 34, says that he's looking hard for a Mormon mate.

[Interview with Steve Young (SY)]

SY: Do you wanna talk about the pressure I feel? Brigham Young once said, right here on these grounds, that anyone over 27 years of age that's not married is a menace to society. So here's my grandfather telling me to get with it. You don't think that I feel the pressure? I guarantee it.

MW [voiceover; footage of BYU campus]: As part of the pressure and focus on families, premarital sex, as we said, is forbidden among Mormons. So is adultery. Mormons don't even go to R-rated movies. But students at Brigham Young University insist that having high moral standards does not prevent them from having a good time.

[Group interview with 7 unidentified BYU students]

Woman: We like to have fun, we like to go on dates, we like to, we like to do just normal things...

MW: But you don't fool around.

Same woman: No. It's not something that I think is fun. A guy I remember, he told me, he's like, "You know, you'd be so much fun if you drank, you'd have, you know, you'd be looser and everything," and I'm like, "You know, I like to have fun knowing what I'm doing, being completely in control, and just having fun with life."

MW [voiceover; footage of SLC temple]: And while these young Mormons stress self-control, they themselves are controlled to a remarkable degree by the church. In fact, Mormons who break the rules of morality or health are not allowed to enter sacred Mormon temples.

MW [in front of Assembly Hall, continuing as voiceover, with footage of temples and people in church]: Living as a devout Mormon is not easy. In addition to what you cannot do, there's a lot you are supposed to do. You're expected to read scripture daily, and to read scripture together as a family at least one night a week. Students attend daily religious courses. Sunday services last three hours. But beyond that, church activities take several more hours each week.

MW [voiceover; footage of Ezra Taft Benson, then footage of next group interview]: All of those hours and all of those rules are too much for some Mormons, who fall away. Steve Benson left the church to become one of its most outspoken critics, even though his late grandfather, Ezra Taft Benson, President Eisenhower's Secretary of Agriculture, had been a church president. Steve Benson complains that by enforcing conformity the church stifles independent thought.

[Interview with Benson (SB) and 3 unidentified others]

SB: The cultural mindset in the church is when the prophet has spoken, the debate is over.

MW: And the prophet is?

SB: Gordon B. Hinckley would be the prophet. [cut] When he has pronounced the church's position on any issue, it is incumbent upon the members of the church to pray, pay, and obey.

[Hinckley interview]

GBH: Well, that's a clever statement from Steve, whom I know. [cut] Now look, our people have tremendous liberty, they're free to live their lives as they please.

MW: Are they?

GBH: Oh, absolutely.

MW: Really?

GBH: Surely. They have to make choices. It's the old eternal battle--the forces of evil against the forces of good.

MW [voiceover; footage of GBH arriving on the dais of a meetinghouse, the chapel filled with missionaries]: The critics acknowledge they represent a tiny minority of Mormons. Still, they say that too many Mormons look and act like they came off an assembly line. But these young Mormon missionaries look that way on purpose.

GBH [addressing male and female missionaries]: You all look alike--white shirts, some of them a little wrinkled, ties. I look at you, I look at your faces, and think of your age, and I'm inclined to say, "Well, you're not much to look at, but you're all the Lord has." [Gordon B. Hinckley laughs alone.]

MW [voiceover; footage of missionaries working]: Many young Mormons leave college for 2 years, at their own expense, to be missionaries. Every day 50,000 of them go door to door in America and 150 other countries. Steve Young missed his missionary chance in college but...

[Steve Young interview]

SY: I will be a missionary in a remote village at some point.

MW: You think so really?

SY: Oh yeah, I think so. Even as a couple. My goal--and this is kind of my own little secret--but when I get married, just to head out and finish football and, and, and be a missionary around the world. Places where Steve Young--not that it's big really that many places--but places where they have no idea about football.

MW [voiceover; more of the church-produced footage of missionaries at work]: This church film demonstrates that missionaries have helped Mormonism achieve its phenomenal growth. Half its members are now from outside the United States. But until its expansion into Latin America and Africa, church membership had been overwhelmingly white.

[Hinckley interview]

MW: From 1830 to 1978, blacks could not become priests in the Mormon Church. Right?

GBH: That's correct.

MW: Why?

GBH: Because the leaders of the church at that time interpreted that doctrine that way. [cut]

MW: Church policy had it that blacks had the mark of Cain. Brigham Young said, "Cain slew his brother, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin."

GBH: It's behind us. Look, that's behind us. Don't worry about those little flicks of history.

MW: Skeptics will suggest, "Well, look, if we're going to expand, we can't keep the blacks out."

GBH: Pure speculation. [Laughs.]

MW [voiceover, footage of people in church]: Now that blacks can be priests, the current issue is whether Mormon women will ever be priests.

[Hinckley interview]

GBH: Men hold the priesthood in this church.

MW: Why?

GBH: Because God stated that it should be so. That was the revelation to the church. That was the way it was set forth.

MW [voiceover; footage of people in church]: Fact is, most Mormon women don't want to be priests. They accept that men control the church and dominate Mormon society. And this has triggered complaints about how the church handles child sexual abuse. Child abuse among Mormons is surely no greater than among non-Mormons. But a study has found that many Mormon women who went to their clergymen for help believe the clergy were just not sympathetic.

[Hinckley interview]

MW: The sociologist tells us, at the root of the problem is the fact that men in effect in your church have authority over women, so that your clergymen tend to sympathize with the men, the abusers, instead of the abused.

GBH: That's one person's opinion. I, I don't think there's any substance to it. [cut] Now, there'll be a blip here, a blip there, a mistake here, a mistake there. But by and large the welfare of women and children is as seriously considered as is the welfare of the men, in this church, if not more so.

MW [voiceover; shot of cover of new manual on dealing with abuse]: President Hinckley says the church has been teaching its clergy how to handle abuse more effectively.

[Hinckley interview]

GBH: We're working very hard at it. There are cases. They're everywhere. They're all over this world. It is a disease, it's an illness, it's a sickness, it's a reprehensible and evil thing. We recognize it as such.

MW [voiceover; footage of Jeffery Holland addressing an audience, and GBH shaking hands in a corridor]: Mormon clergy are not professionals, they're not paid. Their church work is in addition to their regular jobs outside the church. Whatever the jobs, just being a Mormon is expensive. Mormons are expected to give ten percent of their salary to the church. Most of them, including Steve Young, say that's no sacrifice.

[Steve Young interview]

SY: I don't really look at it as my money. You know, in my terms, it's the Lord's money, and I'd be, you know, in effect stealing from him if I didn't do that.

MW [voiceover; footage of meetinghouse under construction]: The church reportedly takes in several billion dollars a year, and has never had a major financial scandal. Most of the money, they say, is spent building 375 chapels a year, all around the world.

[Hinckley interview]

GBH: We're reaching out across the world. [cut] We're not a weird people.

MW: A weird people?

GBH: Yes.

MW [standing in front of SLC temple]: Mormons know that some outside people think they are weird. Why? Well, for one thing, devout Mormons wear sacred undergarments for protection from harm--cotton undershirts with undershorts that reach to their knees.

[William Marriott interview]

MW: Do you wear the sacred undergarments?

WM: Yes, I do. And I can tell you they do protect you from harm.

MW: Really?

WM: Uh-huh. I was in a very serious boat accident. Fire--boat was on fire, I was on fire. I was burned. My pants were burned right off of me. I was not burned above my knee. Where the garment was, I was not burned.

MW: And you believe it was the sacred undergarments.

WM: I do. Particularly on my legs, because my pants were gone, but my undergarments were not singed.

[Steve Young interview]

MW: And do you think that the sacred undergarments have kept you from harm on the football field?

SY: I actually take them off to play football. The sacred nature of them, I find that the nature of football, and the sweating and so forth, I actually take them off, and I think that's probably prevalent with athletics in the church.

MW: Really?

SY: But my teammates have enjoyed when, you know, you're getting dressed and you're putting your garments on. They, they think they're pretty cool, a lot of them. And they're, uh, "Hey, where'd you get those?" And I always tell them, "They're way too expensive." [Both laugh.]

MW [voiceover; aerial footage of farmland, then of MW and GBH walking around Temple Square; then Orrin Hatch]: Another curiosity. The church owns more than 3000 acres in northwest Missouri where Mormons believe that Jesus will return for his second coming. Gordon Hinckley prefers not to talk about Jesus returning to Missouri, or about sacred undergarments. He says that those points miss the point. He wants to portray Mormons as mainstream, not extreme. And for that Hinckley has hired a Jewish-owned public relations firm. Mormons hiring Jews to help spread the word? Makes sense to Senator Orrin Hatch. But then he wears a mezuzah on a chain around his neck. A mezuzah is often put at the entrance to a Jewish home as a reminder of their faith.

[Orrin Hatch interview]

OH: It's typical of Mormon people to love all people, but especially Jewish people. I wear a mezuzah just to remind me, just to make sure that there is never another holocaust anywhere. You see, the Mormon Church is the only church in the history of this country that had an extermination order out against it, by Governor Lilburn Boggs of Missouri. We went through untold persecutions.

MW [voiceover; footage of buildings in SLC, then GBH greeting people]: To escape the persecutions Mormons moved west, and when they reached Salt Lake, their leader, Brigham Young, pointed and declared it their promised land. And now Temple Square is their Vatican. In Salt Lake City, the church owns a TV station, a radio station, a newspaper, a department store, and a lot of the land downtown. Utah is 75% Mormon, and the church could wield political power if it wanted to. But President Hinckley says, unlike the religious right, the Mormon church does not have a political agenda.

[Hinckley interview]

GBH: We urge our people to exercise their franchise as citizens of this nation, but we do not tell them how to vote, and we do not tell the government how it should be run.

[Footage of missionaries coming out of chapel, shaking hands with GBH]

Missionary: Elder Smith, Houston, Texas. Can I give you a hug?

GBH: Yes. [Tall missionary embraces GBH, pushing him backwards.] Look out, you'll roll right over me! [laughs]

MW [voiceover; footage of missionaries continues]: Gordon Hinckley says he never intended to become president of the church, but that one by one all the other church leaders with more seniority died.

[Hinckley interview]

MW: There are those who say, this is a gerontocracy, this is a church run by old men.

GBH: Isn't it wonderful? To have a man of maturity at the head, a man of judgment, who isn't blown about by every wind of doctrine?

MW: Absolutely, as long as he's not dotty. [Laughs.]

GBH: [Laughs] Thank you for the compliment.

MW [voiceover; footage of SLC temple]: Mormons believe that after they die their families will be reunited, and will live together forever in heaven.

[GBH and MW chatting in lobby of meetinghouse, surrounded by onlookers, apparently the missionaries that have come out of the meeting]

GBH: We know it's there. We have an assurance of that.

MW: A lot of us who don't.

GBH: Yeah, I know that. But you could.

MW: I've thought about it. I've not been able to persuade myself.

GBH: You haven't thought about it long enough! [All laugh.]

Samuel the Utahnite

Mormon Missionaries Interviewed In Japan-Part 2

samueltheutahnite@yahoo.com (Samuel the Utahnite) — Tue, 23 Jan 2007 14:42:00 +0000

MP3 File

This is part 2 of the great interview that Doug, from planet Japan, had with the Mormon missionaries over in Japan.

It was ironic that I would have answered the questions he asked them in almost the exact same way, using almost word for word, the words they used. I guess things haven't changed much in the last decade at the MTC(Mission Training Center).

At least these Mormon missionaries are still honest and just boldly say what they've been taught to say to the people, no matter how politically incorrect it may be.

In other words, they aren't PR savvy and trying to lie or sugar-coat things(like Hinckley or Brent Belnap), which is why Mormon missionaries aren't supposed to be doing public interviews in the first place...LOL!!

They've been so indoctrinated, that what they say sounds completely normal to them, because they repeat it day after day and practice it regularly, when studying, role playing, etc, in their companionship study.

Enjoy part 2 everyone and thanks to Doug again for doing the interview and making it available to all the Mormon Truth listeners.

Everyone please visit Planetjapan.org or planetjapanpodcast.blogspot.com and if you can, leave him a donation and a comment, saying thanks for this awesome interview.

I also look forward to your comments here in Mormon Truth regarding this interview.

Samuel the Utahnite

Mormon Missionaries Interviewed In Japan-Part 1

samueltheutahnite@yahoo.com (Samuel the Utahnite) — Tue, 23 Jan 2007 14:27:00 +0000

MP3 File

This was a great interview of Mormon missionaries by Doug, of the awesome podcast "Planet Japan." Doug and Amy do the podcast together but this particular week, Amy wasn't there. I've edited these podcasts to only include the brief intro, interview and ending, but I strongly suggest that you all go listen to the entire podcast and their others, as these 2 are very funny and Doug was hilarious this particular day, when discussing the "talking urinals", LOL. I also loved his lead in to the interview.

Thanks a ton Doug, for allowing me to use this interview to kick off my new "Mormon Truth Interviews" podcast, which will join the Mormon Truth family, which already includes the podcasts, "Mormon Truth(s)" and "Mormon Truth Uncensored", both available on iTunes and many other places, all over the Internet

Enjoy everyone, as Doug did an awesome job on this interview, which allows us to really see clearly, right into the head of an average, everyday Mormon missionary and understand what they are thinking and teaching on a daily basis.

I hope everyone enjoys this new podcast and if anyone has additional interviews that they've saved over the years, regarding Mormons being interviewed, whether it was the Hierarchy or just average members or missionaries; please forward them onto me at SamueltheUtahnite@yahoo.com and I'll publish them in the brand new "Mormon Truth Interviews", for all the world to hear. You can do it anonymously if you would like or I can give you credit, but I'll leave that up to each person.

Samuel the Utahnite